[muckypops]

Orb vs Architect, on Jan 28 2010, 09:00 PM, said:

respect. i was just being sarcastic dude. when i was growing up all my parents listened to was motley crue, bon jovi, guns n roses, poison, alice cooper, or whitesnake. they all have their moments for sure, but holy crap -- not for me!

chicago represent! what station is that?

WDCB 90.9 out of College of DuPage.

[Orb vs Architect]

muckypops, on Jan 28 2010, 10:06 PM, said:

WDCB 90.9 out of College of DuPage.

glen ellyn represent

[cpowers]

Not to get too deep but I don't think you can call any drummer, or musician for that matter, over rated. When you rate a drummer it is purely subjective to your tastes, what you find interesting, and what types of things you like to hear.
Take Nickelback, huge selling artists and ones I'm not a fan of in the least. When people say they are the greatest band in the world are they right? No. But neither are people who say they are the worst band ever. No one can take a purely objective look at music and say one band is better than another. I know for a fact I can't and I really don't think anyone else can.

Back to the topic at hand. I like tommy lee as a drummer. As a person he isn't someone that I would admire but that's a different story. As a drummer I think he serves the band perfectly.

Quote

Remove Motley Crues worldwide fame and there is nothing to seperate Tommy Lee from countless rock drummers who keep it solid but simple

Yes that's true but remove Zeppelins fame and what's to separate Bonham from other hard rock drummers of the era. As influential as Bonham was (he was one of my favs before I take any heat) Who is to say there were no other drummers that played like he did at that time.

Quote

Akira Jimbo, Thomas Lang, Jim Chapin, Louie Bellson, Steve Gadd, Neil Peart, Mike Portnoy, Chris Pennie

I don't feel that Mike Portnoy or Chris Pennie would belong with the rest of that list either. I'm not saying that they are overrated but to my tastes they would not spring to mind when discussing Gadd or Bellson.

When you ask if a drummer is overrated it's basically asking do you like that drummer? Yes or no. That's all it comes down to.

Sorry for the long post but I just felt like getting in my two cents

[SAPO AMARILLO]

I think his drumming is overated by the general public. But what the hell do they know about drumming?

Applebees is popular and famous too.....but there's hole-in-wall restaurants everywhere that have better food.

Last weekend at a gig some dude was blowing smoke up my butt about my drumming, and during the conversation he asked me who I thought was the best drummer. I made it clear that I don't have a "best drummer" - but that one of my favorites is Gavin Harrison.

He didn't even know who he was....and he, thinking he was some sort of "expert" about drumming or music - scoffed at my suggestion that Gavin was more incredible than Kieth Moon, Neil Peart and a few others that he mentioned.

Than he made fun of the name "PORCUPINE TREE".





Whaddya gonna do?

[Luke Carter]

cpowers, on Jan 28 2010, 10:00 PM, said:

Yes that's true but remove Zeppelins fame and what's to separate Bonham from other hard rock drummers of the era. As influential as Bonham was (he was one of my favs before I take any heat) Who is to say there were no other drummers that played like he did at that time.

Bonham was showing alot more influence from other genres and a much more thought out approach to his playing.
If you break apart his fills they are much more complex and thought out than your standard rock or hard rock drummer

He probably would have struggled to get anywhere near the recognition he has recieved but he'd definately stand a greater chance than Tommy Lee.

Tommy Lee is playing in a meat and potatoes style in his band, which is fine, but then when he insists on playing his solos, he launches into something that is a great show for the audience (jet packs, suspended drum cages, stick spins etc.) but only a drum solo in the loosest sense of the word.

Quote

I don't feel that Mike Portnoy or Chris Pennie would belong with the rest of that list either. I'm not saying that they are overrated but to my tastes they would not spring to mind when discussing Gadd or Bellson.

They're definately not in the same style, but the point is they are drummers who have been recognised for achievement.
In terms of technical difficulty, very few drummers could sit in for Chris Pennie when he was in Dillinger Escape Plan. Even on simpler tracks like 'Setting Fire to Sleeping Giants', he shows alot of groove and understanding for the music when placing his stabs.

If you've managed to stay musical and can show you're thinking about the music whilst playing in such a complex manner that many would struggle to imitate, then it's got to count for something!

[drummerduck424]

cpowers, on Jan 28 2010, 11:00 PM, said:

Not to get too deep but I don't think you can call any drummer, or musician for that matter, over rated. When you rate a drummer it is purely subjective to your tastes, what you find interesting, and what types of things you like to hear.

The question itself is a matter of personal opinion and taste. But when I ask if you think they are over rated I think it's simply a question of how good you think they are compared with their fame and how good everybody else thinks they are. In Tommy Lees case a vast majority of his fans seem to think he is amazing and maybe even the best drummer ever (I got that impression from youtube comments and talking to people). When you break his drumming down it's not the most complex or musical stuff. I think he's a solid drummer but when I follow that formula I find him highly over rated.

cpowers, on Jan 28 2010, 11:00 PM, said:

I don't feel that Mike Portnoy or Chris Pennie would belong with the rest of that list either. I'm not saying that they are overrated but to my tastes they would not spring to mind when discussing Gadd or Bellson.

I would have to agree with Luke Carter on this one. I'm also a huge fan of the Dillinger Escape Plan. I also think Portnoy belongs there because he is good but I'm not a big fan of him.

cpowers, on Jan 28 2010, 11:00 PM, said:

When you ask if a drummer is overrated it's basically asking do you like that drummer? Yes or no. That's all it
comes down to.

Sorry for the long post but I just felt like getting in my two cents

I don't really agree with that because of how I calculate over-rated-ness. But yes, personal preference has a lot to do with it.

Also I thought I would post this again. Somebody posted it awhile back, it's recordings of just John Bonhams drum tracks. You get a better feel for his beats and whatnot from that than simply listening to the recordings with the rest of the band.

[Luke Carter]

drummerduck424, on Jan 29 2010, 08:55 AM, said:

Also I thought I would post this again. Somebody posted it awhile back, it's recordings of just John Bonhams drum tracks. You get a better feel for his beats and whatnot from that than simply listening to the recordings with the rest of the band.

That's awesome!

/bookmarked

[SmackADrum]

I have remained quiet but now I come out of the woodwork.

My favorite quote from Mike Portnoy is...

It's all simple druming... Sometimes I sound like Metallica and even sometimes I sound like Motley Crue

(I paraphrased it because I don't remember it...) But the jist was... a really good drummer was speaking about simple drumming and referenced Motley Crue... Thats enough for me haha...

[pyro13g]

Voted no because he is top dog, drummer wise, for the style of music he played during Crue's days in the spotlight. He is my favorite drummer for that reason. I want some schooling driving that music at the drums, I'll listen to Tommy Lee.

Plus, he's just cool!

[muckypops]

drummerduck424, on Jan 29 2010, 08:55 AM, said:

I don't really agree with that because of how I calculate over-rated-ness. But yes, personal preference has a lot to do with it.

Could you post that formula? It might come in handy for future polls

[Poco Askew]

muckypops, on Jan 29 2010, 10:25 AM, said:

Could you post that formula? It might come in handy for future polls

OR= (r+g)^2+E
........P-pr+2V+.5s

You can solve the formula where:
OR = overrated factor
r = fan reputation
g = gimicks used
E = equipment needed to perform
P = playing ability
pr = personal reputation
V = variety of drumming performed
s= speed on kit

[Alu]

muckypops, on Jan 29 2010, 12:25 PM, said:

Could you post that formula? It might come in handy for future polls

Poco Askew, on Jan 29 2010, 12:54 PM, said:

OR= (r+g)^2+E
........P-pr+2V+.5s

You can solve the formula where:
OR = overrated factor
r = fan reputation
g = gimicks used
E = equipment needed to perform
P = playing ability
pr = personal reputation
V = variety of drumming performed
s= speed on kit

Be careful what you ask for........

[Dalleh]

Poco Askew, on Jan 29 2010, 08:54 PM, said:

OR= (r+g)^2+E
........P-pr+2V+.5s

You can solve the formula where:
OR = overrated factor
r = fan reputation
g = gimicks used
E = equipment needed to perform
P = playing ability
pr = personal reputation
V = variety of drumming performed
s= speed on kit

I'd put the g and E in the bottom, right now they're boosting the...

oh wait, it's overrating were counting here.

nevermind

edit:
shouldn't pr be on the top of the line? as it's boosting the general rating of the drummer, which is a quite huge factor in this.
I'd make the formula like this:

OR= (1,5r+g)+E+pr^2
.............P+2V+.5s

This post has been edited by Dalleh: 29 January 2010 - 11:41 AM

[Poco Askew]

Dalleh, on Jan 29 2010, 11:36 AM, said:

I'd put the g and E in the bottom, right now they're boosting the...

oh wait, it's overrating were counting here.

nevermind

edit:
shouldn't pr be on the top of the line? as it's boosting the general rating of the drummer, which is a quite huge factor in this.
I'd make the formula like this:

OR= (1,5r+g)+E+pr^2
.............P+2V+.5s

It was a joke. I didn't really try to make it accurate.

[Dalleh]

Poco Askew, on Jan 29 2010, 09:52 PM, said:

It was a joke. I didn't really try to make it accurate.

lol. Do you truly think I didn't understand that?

This post has been edited by Dalleh: 29 January 2010 - 11:58 AM

[drummerduck424]

Dalleh, on Jan 29 2010, 01:36 PM, said:

I'd put the g and E in the bottom, right now they're boosting the...

oh wait, it's overrating were counting here.

nevermind

edit:
shouldn't pr be on the top of the line? as it's boosting the general rating of the drummer, which is a quite huge factor in this.
I'd make the formula like this:

OR= (1,5r+g)+E+pr^2
.............P+2V+.5s

I officially endorse this as the numerical formula of over-rated-ness! Although it just occured to me that ego should be a factor in this....

OR= (1,5r+g)+E+pr^2+eg2
.............P+2V+.5s

eg=ego

[muckypops]

Dalleh, on Jan 29 2010, 01:55 PM, said:

lol. Do you truly think I didn't understand that?

LOL that's too much! I was thinking of doing the same thing but I couldn't figure out anything that actually made sense.

[Dalleh]

drummerduck424, on Jan 29 2010, 10:04 PM, said:

I officially endorse this as the numerical formula of over-rated-ness! Although it just occured to me that ego should be a factor in this....

OR= (1,5r+g)+E+pr^2+eg2
.............P+2V+.5s

eg=ego

I believe got a little situation with the ego, if a drummer screams I'm the best, he'll either
1) get booed out
or
2) get the crowd even crazier.

So this puts the eg in a whole new perspective, and strongly I believe a high ego should be able to give two different possible outputs. I can't think of a way to implement that into the formula, but I will notice you if I do!
Feel free to prove me wrong!

EDIT: I think I got it:

OR= (1,5r+g)+E+pr^2+[sq]eg[/sq]
.............P+2V+.5s

where the [sq] brackets mean square root. As you probably is aware of, all roots have two possible answers, a positive and a negative number

I'm assuming the crowd will be turned on/turned of the same amount

This post has been edited by Dalleh: 29 January 2010 - 12:44 PM

[Poco Askew]

The formula needs to be submitted to some authority for approval so it will referenced as the standard by which all drummers are judged.

[Dalleh]

there we go, easier to read:




OR = overrated factor
r = fan reputation in percent, 0-100% (how many of the fans think he's the best drummer in the world)
g = gimmicks used
E = equipment needed to perform
pr = personal reputation, based on opinions of people who are not a fan of him, 0-100
eg = ego in a scale rated 0-100

P = playing ability, rated in a scale of 0-10
V = variety of drumming performed, 0-15
s = speed on kit in bpm, the fastest he can play clean 16th

Some numbers I'm getting:
The typical pop drummer:
Positive ego feedback!
(((1,5 * 73) + 2) + 6 + (23 * 23) + 7) / (4 + (2 * 0) + (0,5 * 134)) = 9,20422535

Negative ego feedback!
(((1,5 * 73) + 2) + 6 + (23 * 23) - 7) / (4 + (2 * 0) + (0,5 * 134)) = 9,00704225

The typical death metal drummer:
Positive ego feedback!
(((1,5 * 100) + 2) + 23 + (60 * 260) + 10) / (8 + (2 * 0) + (0,5 * 270)) = 110,384615

Negative ego feedback!
(((1,5 * 100) + 2) + 23 + (60 * 260) - 10) / (8 + (2 * 0) + (0,5 * 270)) = 110,244755

So apparently the typical death metal drummer actually is more overrated than the typical pop drummer. interesting!
I used google for the calcs, if you spot any mistakes let me know!



// too much spare time

This post has been edited by Dalleh: 29 January 2010 - 01:33 PM