[Matt Shank]

Jojo and RRM are both excellent in their own way.

[ricka47]

I just ordered the "Complete System." But, from what I'm reading here, the Moeller Method is a "must have" as well?

[gin]

Drumwood, on Mar 11 2009, 09:20 AM, said:

Anyone seen this DVD and JoJo Mayer's Secret Weapons for the Modern Drummer? I'd be interested in hearing what the differences are.

i v watched JOJO's. he has a good way of teaching people how to make the right move. he slow every motion, and exaggerate it, so as to let us know more clearly.

[Poco Askew]

Mr Ected, on Feb 9 2010, 11:18 PM, said:

Fair enough on both posts above.

I do agree that the Moeller is a foundational technique, it's just one of the more advanced foundation techniques IMO. As far as strokes are concerned I would start with the free stroke, then move to push-pull and then finally to the Moeller technique as it seems to naturally flow that way.

I wasn't aware of how in depth the DVD goes, so that's good that he covers all of the basics!

How does his treatment of the Moeller technique in this system compare with Jojo Mayers Secret Weapons? I might consider checking out this system, but I'm not sure if there's too much overlap.

MM covers the free stroke first in the discussion of strokes. The free stroke is part of Moeller. That's where the beginner would want to focus - getting good, even, relaxed strokes. The more advanced applications of Moeller (up stroke, down stroke, full Moeller, etc.) would be added before too long, IMO - whenever ghost and accent strokes and other dynamics are introduced.

Jojo's DVD may be the best DVD resource out there. There is a lot of overlap between it and MM. My initial thought is you don't need both. I'd have to review both to be sure. Once you've had the correct grip and stroke explained and shown, I'm not sure another version of it is necessary. Mike does offer some very nice extras like exercises, play-alongs, and motivational solos.

This post has been edited by Poco Askew: 10 February 2010 - 08:06 AM

[Mr Ected]

Thanks to all the replies above.

Yeah, I agree, Secret Weapons was a life-changing (as far as drumming goes) resource for me. I just wasn't sure if there was even more covered in the RRM version that may not have been covered in Secret Weapons - as far as the Moeller Method is concerned.

I'm just not sure where I should go from here. I want to support RRM more, but I'm not sure what resources I should use. Most of my focus in the last year has been on developing proper hand technique, control and limb independence, I feel I have progressed in these areas and it has helped me become a more well-rounded drummer. I suppose I can start to drill down into learning specific styles such as more focus on Jazz, Rock, etc.

What do you guys suggest?

[Poco Askew]

Maybe the Latin? Read my review and see if it looks to be of interest.

[Tamatrainee]

I recently purchased the MM and on a first quick viewing, it seems pretty good and full of techniques which should be useful.
On the second disc, in the extras section, there is mention of a free e-book and it gives the website.
When I fill in my details and click the link, it directs me to an e-commerce site.

Has the book been discontinued?

[Zulu]

Received my copy of MMS today and what a great purchase it was for me, after receiving the rudiments DVD a few days ago and going through some of those I was fighting with myself to hold the sticks the same way all the time, I was resisting what came natural to me when gripping the sticks as I thought it was wrong (I never knew there were other methods of grip as I just thought that everybody says it is so important to grip the sticks correctly I thought any other way was wrong wrong wrong so forced myself not to change grip when I should be) How glad was I to get this DVD and learn what I was doing (and felt so much better and natural) was right and without the DVD I would be going backwards down a long dark path (I suppose another reason for a teacher if you don't get these DVD's otherwise you just never know)

So now I am way stoked I was doing it naturally right and can't wait to get back on the kit tomorrow and put some more of these methods in to action.

Great DVD's, well done.

Cheers

Warren

[ajay]

I have the set of drumming system and DRS. Both discus about hand techniques, with wrist and using it like whip etc. It also demonstrates full/up/down/tap etc. My question is Should I purchase MM also? Will it give me some extra skill by spending more on it.

[DrummerChef]

ajay, on Dec 30 2010, 08:41 PM, said:

My question is Should I purchase MM also? Will it give me some extra skill by spending more on it.

I can't tell you to buy something, but IMO, it couldn't hurt. yes is the answer to your second question if you mean time, not $$.

[ridethesnare]

Hi Jared,

I saw your video on french grip finger technique.
I have seen a similar one in Mike Michalkow's Moeller Method Secrets DVD that I have purchased.
I have been practicing the technique for awhile, but I find that as I try to place the fleshy part of my thumb on the stick, the thumb impedes the motion of the fingers, and the fingers have to push against the thumb. This causes some pain. What must be the ideal position of the thumb, in order to ensure a good grip, but at the same time, allow smooth motion of the fingers?

Thanks so much.

Puneet Shankar,
Bangalore,
India.

[einarabelc5]

About DVD 1:

To be honest I don't even know WHY the DVD is called moeller method secrets. When it comes to moeller I learned exactly the same from Dom Famularo in the vic firth website for free. I am really disspointed because of that.

Now, other than that the different motions are pretty cool specially when applied to the snare and hi-hat patterns and that actually the only value I saw on this DVD on my current state.

Please notice that I'm talking about my particular case where I've already reviewed Famularo's videos, Jared's free video on finger control, and stick grip videos. Why would I pay $47 plus S+H + foreign purchase for the motions then? BTW the S+H on Railroad(drumeo?) was great. They did exactly what I requested and I'm thankful for it.

Michael spends A LOT OF UNNECESSARY time showcasing his ability in 2 long solos. That is because I'm looking to learn moeller, not to watch drum solos. I can go to Michael's youtube channel for that. Also notice this DVD is from 2006.
It seems like the DVD has only 15 documented exercises and they're all related to motions.That is if you count out all the basic exercises where you get the mechanics of each motion.

I must repeat again, when it comes to moeller and how to utilize it for speed in a sequential manner for something other than hitting the snare to create single accents I feel totally disappointed by this DVD and could say it's a scam. Why didn't they show how to use the moeller techniques around the kit like they did with the motions? The DVD feels like it's lacking more instruction.

This is what I was expecting:

Get faster and more clean and precise in my drumming by learning the moeller method and how to apply the whipping motion in a series of exercises that will allow me to achieve my goal.

This is what I got on the first DVD:

1.-How to grab your stick
2.-The free stroke motion (which is offered for free on vicfirth.com under Dom Famularo's lessons)
3.-Finger control (again, offered for free in an improvised video by Jared Falk)
4.-Motions (including the free stroke) and how to apply them to the kit (only value I see)
5.-Moeller method ( Same information that Dom Famularo offers for free at vicfirth.com) IMHO DOM describes the low moeller and medium moeller in a better and more clearer way. The advantage in this DVD is that you can slow down what Michael is doing and see for yourself.
6.-Single Paradiddle--Michael combines the concept of para-diddle with a single stroke roll and the application of one motion to come up with a way of playing the paradiddle. Some value here.


Did I set my expectations too high or was I mislead? Is there anything else to moeller than the 3 basic motions.


I could look in DVD 2 but as the title says that one has the solos and play alongs(at least that's what I was expecting).

This post has been edited by einarabelc5: 20 December 2011 - 09:38 PM

[Poco Askew]

einarabelc5, on 20 December 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

To be honest I don't even know WHY the DVD is called moeller method secrets. When it comes to moeller I learned exactly the same from Dom Famularo in the vic firth website for free. I am really disspointed because of that.

I think "scam" is harsh, inaccurate and uncalled for. Why don't you just return it and get your money back? Yes - it is one of the earliest products put out by RRM and the lessons have improved as they have evolved. This product may be due for a refresh, but five or six years ago it was as good as anything I saw, and those 3" video lessons by Dom didn't even exist. If this was a "scam", would RRM offer you a no-hassle, money-back guarantee? At the very worst, you've gotten another perspective on this technique and it won't have cost you anything but a little time and a minimal amount of shipping expense.

einarabelc5, on 20 December 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

Is there anything else to moeller than the 3 basic motions.

Moeller uses three motions as points of reference. It is those three motions and everything in between. What else is there? A lifetime of practice to become proficient with its application. Like any drum lesson or technique, there are no secrets or short cuts. Once you understand the basics, it primarily comes down to lots of time playing to improve.

[einarabelc5]

Poco Askew, on 21 December 2011 - 05:03 AM, said:

I think "scam" is harsh, inaccurate and uncalled for. Why don't you just return it and get your money back? Yes - it is one of the earliest products put out by RRM and the lessons have improved as they have evolved. This product may be due for a refresh, but five or six years ago it was as good as anything I saw, and those 3" video lessons by Dom didn't even exist. If this was a "scam", would RRM offer you a no-hassle, money-back guarantee? At the very worst, you've gotten another perspective on this technique and it won't have cost you anything but a little time and a minimal amount of shipping expense.

You didn't get the point Poco.

I am calling the DVD different things depending on what angle you look at it from. It's interesting how everyone always focuses on the negative aspects and then expands on it. I did posted some positive aspects like shipping and the things where I found value. But what you did was to criticize me for the part you didn't liked about my post.
I mentioned both the good and the bad things and I made sure whoever read it to be clear that it was what it meant for ME in my current position. I still think two things:

1.-It's a good starting point when starting from zero.
2.-When you hear "MOELLER METHOD SECRETS" you expect the product to be about the 3 movements of moeller and how to perfect them with exercises and so on. Not to have a brief section dedicated to it without ever expanding on it. No matter how you coat it, even though the DVD HAS VALUE in and on itself. It is NOT about moeller method mainly. It IS about GOOD OVERALL TECHNIQUE. From that perspective yes, I think they should at least change the name or do a review just by adding more moeller to it. They don't have to recreate the whole thing, they just have to add more moeller to it.

I understand nobody likes a customer coming to their own shop and telling their product sucks. But that's not my purpose. I'm simply saying that I bought something expecting it to be something else. I don't plan on taking shortcuts, so please don't say that. I play every day and build my speed by working hard. I simply wanted a tool to help me do that better, some guiding regarding Moeller because it's something that everyone showcases as one of the greatest things about drumming. If you know guitar it would be the equivalent of semi-alternate picking, string skipping and arpeggios. What they showed me was how to hold your pick, how to fret the strings, A LITTLE BIT OF SEMIALTERNATE PICKING with no exercises for it, A LITTLE BIT OF ARPEGGIOS, and how to combine those two to do something like a paradiddle. I'm being honest so don't insult what I'm saying. I think I have enough experience with musical instruments to know there are no shortcuts.

Sorry for the harsh word "scam" but English is not my primary language and I couldn't find a better word that suited what I wanted to say. I guess mislead by the title would be a better one.

This post has been edited by einarabelc5: 21 December 2011 - 10:25 AM

[Poco Askew]

einarabelc5, on 21 December 2011 - 10:23 AM, said:

You didn't get the point Poco.

I am calling the DVD different things depending on what angle you look at it from. It's interesting how everyone always focuses on the negative aspects and then expands on it. I did posted some positive aspects like shipping and the things where I found value. But what you did was to criticize me for the part you didn't liked about my post.
I mentioned both the good and the bad things and I made sure whoever read it to be clear that it was what it meant for ME in my current position.

I did get your point. I criticized the part of your post with which I disagree. No more. No less. I moved the entire post to this sub-forum since it is a review of the product and this is where it belongs. I agree with some of what you said but didn't post anything about it. I'm not sure what you expect. I guess I could have thrown a "+1" out there. I didn't say you only criticized the product or RRM. I merely responded to the points I felt needed it. I don't work for them and if you look at my first review of their products, you'll see I had some strong criticism as well. I'm not going to censor an unflattering review, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to call out an inaccurate (IMO) characterization. Like many things, it's less about what you say and more about how you say it.

[einarabelc5]

Poco Askew, on 21 December 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

I did get your point. I criticized the part of your post with which I disagree. No more. No less. I moved the entire post to this sub-forum since it is a review of the product and this is where it belongs. I agree with some of what you said but didn't post anything about it. I'm not sure what you expect. I guess I could have thrown a "+1" out there. I didn't say you only criticized the product or RRM. I merely responded to the points I felt needed it. I don't work for them and if you look at my first review of their products, you'll see I had some strong criticism as well. I'm not going to censor an unflattering review, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to call out an inaccurate (IMO) characterization. Like many things, it's less about what you say and more about how you say it.

Ok,I will have to continue to work on that then. Thank You!

[samiam]

Going to be purchasing this very soon, looking forward to it