[osirus211]

Hi-

My drum instructor was teaching me a little 12/8 today, and I got a little confused about something. He tried to explain the time signature mathematically, and being an engineer, I really picked his brain, but we didn't exactly arrive at an answer that I'm satisfied with 100%. I was hoping someone might be able to clarify for me.

Here's how he explained it:

12/8 means that there are 12 beats per measure, and the eight indicates that one beat = one eighth note. Therefore, a measure of 12/8 contain 12 eighth notes.

Now, the point of confusion is HOW do we write those 12 eighth notes. He wrote it as 4 groups of 3 notes. So, my question is... why groups of 3? Why not 3 groups of 4? 6 groups of 2? There is nothing in the 12 or the 8 that tells me, Oh, those should be in groups of 3. He mentioned that if I wrote it as 3 groups of 4, that could be "reduced" to a different time signature, so it wouldn't really be 12/8 anymore. Only the groups of 3 are non-reducible and therefore, pure 12/8.

I'm sure its something small that I'm not grasping, but I'd like to understand. Your response is greatly appreciated.

[Dudewithlonghair]

What he meant was that if it was 12/8 as 3 groups of 4, it would really be 3/2, because groups of 4 and 2 can be counted in normal notes, where to count groups of 3 you needed to use dotted notes. The way 12/8 works is not actually 12 8th notes, but 4 dotted quarters.

[Poco Askew]

To me, 12/8 means blues - a triplet / shuffle feel. It is that four groups of three notes that tells you the music's style. But I'm no music theorist.

[AndyC]

osirus211, on 27 August 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

Now, the point of confusion is HOW do we write those 12 eighth notes. He wrote it as 4 groups of 3 notes. So, my question is... why groups of 3? Why not 3 groups of 4? ...

The answer is annoyingly, "It just IS groups of 3." Listen to this:-



and:-



You can clearly hear the groups of 3 in them. That's why they're 12/8. If it WAS in groups of 4, depending on the feel, it would probably be written in 3/4 with 16h note subdivisions, or 6/4 or even 4/4 and 2/4.

There is almost always a degree of ambiguity in all this. For instance, "can't help Falling in love" could easily be 6/8, and "One Night" could equally be 4/4. All that matters is that the musicians reading it all know the feel required.

In fact, it can get even more confusing. I remember Kenny Clare ( http://www.drummerwo...enny_Clare.html ) telling me about touring with Tom Jones. They had a gig with a major Classical Orchestra in the States, but they had a problem in that all of the arrangements for any of the shuffle and swing stuff he did were in 4/4 and in that case, when two 8th notes are written, the Swing is implied. ie they are played as triplets with the middle note missed out. The Orchestra just couldn't get it, so in the end, The MD, Andre Previn ( http://en.wikipedia....dr%C3%A9_Previn ) rewrote all of the orchestra parts in 12/8, even though the rest of the band were in 4/4 so they would get the phrasing to sound right. (It's really hard to explain that in print, but I'm sure your teacher will be able to explain it.)

Cheers

Andy

This post has been edited by AndyC: 05 September 2011 - 12:50 PM

[lucasj122]

it's basically the same thing as 4/4. except I count each 1-trip-let 2-trip-let 3-trip-let 4-trip-let. this is how I count it, but its really counted 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12. Emphasizing 1,4,7,10 making it sound like triplets in 4/4. Hope this makes it easier.

[warboy]

Post I made awhile ago about 6/8 that can be applied to 12/8

6/8 is always* (yes always) split into two groups of 3 8th notes. 3/4 is always split into 3 groups of two eighth notes. So in 6/8 you have two beat divisions which you usually can tell by a backbeat on the fourth note. 3/4 has three groupings so the usual backbeat lands on the third beat. It's about the strength of each of the beats in the music. The placement of downbeats and upbeats (non-strong beats) determine meter.

*Theory stuff justifying my absolute statement above*
Time signatures are divided into two main categories; simple and compound. The definition of simple meter is a time signature that divides the beat into two even parts. Compound meter is a time signature that divides into three or more parts. So simple meter includes things like 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 2/2, ect. This is because each of the beats in those time signatures can be divided into two even parts. In the case of all of them besides 2/2, two eighth notes. These time signatures aren't divided into threes even when they can (for example 3/4) because the top number explicitly states there are a certain number of beats in the measure. Compound time works a bit different. Compound time can include things like 6/8, 9/8, 5/8 (because compound meters also include uneven meters) and so on. If you read the time signature literally you would have 6 beats in each measure for 6/8 and in really slow classical music you see that every once in awhile. However the more useful practice is dividing the measures into larger beats (like two beats of three in 6/8) to make it easier to count. Because all the simple meters literally read out what they say, the compound meters are divided into groups of three so musicians can easily discern where the downbeats and upbeats should be in the music. Thus, things in 6/8 are always divided into two parts and things in 3/4 in three parts.

[Dudewithlonghair]

Knows music theory ^^
MT4L

[warboy]

Dudewithlonghair, on 28 August 2011 - 10:15 AM, said:

Knows music theory ^^
MT4L

MT4L?

I know the basics.

[Dudewithlonghair]

Music Theory 4 Life

[osirus211]

Thanks a lot, guys. And MT4L, too!

[Vasheir]

warboy, on 28 August 2011 - 06:59 PM, said:

MT4L?

I know the basics.

If that's considered basics, then I know goo goo gaa gaa.

[warboy]

Vasheir, on 29 August 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

If that's considered basics, then I know goo goo gaa gaa.

Fine, I know the college basics.

[osirus211]

warboy, on 30 August 2011 - 06:58 AM, said:

Fine, I know the college basics.

your mom goes to college.

[FourPieceMetal]

Wait a second. I'm a bit new to music theory, and I only know BEATS in odd time signatures (i.e the latin 3/2 beats, like the bossa nova beat) Now, wouldn't 12/8 be 6 groups of two? I'm just thinking, because 4/4 means 4 beats, and we're playing quarter notes. wouldn't 12/8 mean 12 beats, playing eighth notes, which is twice as fast as quarter notes? so I'd be playing groups of 2 and in the end I'm going to play twelve beats? So 6 groups of 2. Again I'm new to this, so any clarification between the difference between the left and right number in any time signature shown as 'number/number' would be helpful.

[Poco Askew]

FourPieceMetal, on 03 October 2011 - 03:17 PM, said:

Wait a second. I'm a bit new to music theory, and I only know BEATS in odd time signatures (i.e the latin 3/2 beats, like the bossa nova beat) Now, wouldn't 12/8 be 6 groups of two? I'm just thinking, because 4/4 means 4 beats, and we're playing quarter notes. wouldn't 12/8 mean 12 beats, playing eighth notes, which is twice as fast as quarter notes? so I'd be playing groups of 2 and in the end I'm going to play twelve beats? So 6 groups of 2. Again I'm new to this, so any clarification between the difference between the left and right number in any time signature shown as 'number/number' would be helpful.

You are mostly correct. 12/8 does mean there are 12 beats in a measure, but it does NOT mean you are playing 8th notes. It means an 8th note is what you count as being one of those 12 beats. You could be playing two 16th notes or whatever in place of an 8th note. In any time signature the first number is how many beats are in a measure. The second number is what note value constitutes one of those beats. But while playing any note value can be played, along with dotted notes, rests, etc.

Time signatures (when used correctly) usually have a convention associated with them. Any music could be written in 4/4, but by using other time sig's, the notation is easier to read and with established conventions, can also tell you something about the style and feel of the music. So, you are correct. 12/8 could be six groups of two 8th notes, but it can also be four groups of three notes (still =12 notes). Those groups of three notes give the music a bluestriplet/shuffle feel.

I'm not strong on theory either. This is just my take on it.

[realscotch]

We played a song that was in 123/61 1/2. That was a tricky little sucker to play. Oddly, it sounded like a cross between "Come a little bit closer" by Jay and the Americans and "Rudolph the red nosed reindeer" by whoever.

The theory behind it was that, if you had just enough scotch, you could reach the speed of light right there in your living room, and either prove or disprove the string theory which may or may not be in 12/8.

[pearlvx96]

osirus211, on 30 August 2011 - 11:00 AM, said:

your mom goes to college.

hahahahahahaha best line

[Dudewithlonghair]

My mom goes to college. There a problem with that?

[osirus211]

Dudewithlonghair, on 04 October 2011 - 10:57 AM, said:

My mom goes to college. There a problem with that?

Apparently.