[Subrick]

I personally use two bass drums as opposed to one bass drum with a double pedal on it. I go by the Dave Lombardo philosophy of it where having a double pedal causes a slapback from the pedal and the drum doesn't breathe properly. Not to mention that when triggering a single bass drum the extra vibrations make double hits much more common (I trigger each kick individually).

For you metal players out there, as well as you jazzers who use this set up, what do you use? Two kicks, or one kick with a double pedal?

[realscotch]

Subrick, on Jan 17 2011, 02:31 AM, said:

I personally use two bass drums as opposed to one bass drum with a double pedal on it. I go by the Dave Lombardo philosophy of it where having a double pedal causes a slapback from the pedal and the drum doesn't breathe properly. Not to mention that when triggering a single bass drum the extra vibrations make double hits much more common (I trigger each kick individually).

For you metal players out there, as well as you jazzers who use this set up, what do you use? Two kicks, or one kick with a double pedal?

Having just bought a double pedal (Iron Cobras) for the hell of it, if my bass drum developes breathing problems, I'll let you know.

As for the extra vibrations making double hits more common, logic says, ditch the triggers.

[abacacus]

Ditching triggers isn't always an option. Anyone playing much over 200 will very quickly discover that it is amazingly hard to make your bass drum heard, just because of the low end. It blurs, sounds like mud. Tuning higher doesn't fix it. Triggers are essentially the only option.


I personally use one kick. Using a double might prevent the drum from breathing perfectly, but unless your kick has NO muffling, it wont matter... you want a short sound anyways right? I would like to have two because of the feel, but I'll stick with one for now. Purchasing a demon drive for a more equal feel once I save up the 700 or so

[realscotch]

First time I saw Belson was in the mid 60's. His double bass came through clear as a bell. Maybe these problems are caused more by technique and tuning than by breathing difficulties of the BD.

[abacacus]

How fast was Bellson playing though. Betcha anything he wasn't hitting the speeds metal does all the time today. There is a major difference in sound between 160 and 260.

[realscotch]

abacacus, on Jan 17 2011, 03:32 AM, said:

How fast was Bellson playing though. Betcha anything he wasn't hitting the speeds metal does all the time today. There is a major difference in sound between 160 and 260.

He was well past 160. At that time there was no need to do 250. Being that he was play DB for about 35 years when I first saw him. If there was a need for 250 back then, I have no doubt he would have done it.

[Poco Askew]

When triggering, drum "breathing" doesn't matter. The sound is the sound. You could trigger a sheet of plywood and it would sound the same as a $2000 custom kick. Do you mic and trigger at the same time?

This post has been edited by Poco Askew: 17 January 2011 - 06:19 AM

[Arjunpai]

Subrick, on Jan 17 2011, 01:01 PM, said:

I personally use two bass drums as opposed to one bass drum with a double pedal on it. I go by the Dave Lombardo philosophy of it where having a double pedal causes a slapback from the pedal and the drum doesn't breathe properly. Not to mention that when triggering a single bass drum the extra vibrations make double hits much more common (I trigger each kick individually).

For you metal players out there, as well as you jazzers who use this set up, what do you use? Two kicks, or one kick with a double pedal?

nothing beats the look and feel of 2 kicks \m/(<_>)\m/
Two individual are my personal preferences if not for space and tuning issues. I personally feel triggers are needed after 180bpm after which the low end of the bass is inaudible because of distorted guitars and vocals!
But heavy triggering is a strict no no to me! nothing beats the sound of wood! I'd go with moderate triggering!

[Subrick]

THe other reason I use two bass drums is because there's just more power in the feet. Due to the slapback feel I mentioned in the OP, it takes away some power that you would've had if you had two separate bass drums.

[abacacus]

realscotch, on Jan 17 2011, 01:44 AM, said:

He was well past 160. At that time there was no need to do 250. Being that he was play DB for about 35 years when I first saw him. If there was a need for 250 back then, I have no doubt he would have done it.

So, he wasn't playing the speeds metal hits today then? SO why use his playing against ours.... he wasn't playing the same thing. Speed matters in this case.

[Niiko]

When I'm just playing I use a double pedal, when in the studio i'll use two kicks but never trigger.
1st reason is that I rarely play over 200bpm. Secondly, and personally, triggers should never be a substitute for technique and tuning. If you're recording in a studio, whoever is mixing the tracks will be able to get the definition and attack from a kick drum with a simple EQ on the mid high and high (Sort of spiked, that's where the 'click' sound comes from).

I wouldn't mind having a kit similar to Mike Portnoy's (Maybe even Terry Bozzio? LOL). But i'll always prefer a double pedal.

[realscotch]

abacacus, on Jan 17 2011, 02:33 PM, said:

So, he wasn't playing the speeds metal hits today then? SO why use his playing against ours.... he wasn't playing the same thing. Speed matters in this case.

That style of music is the only genre it matters in. In all other cases it doesn't mean much and triggering covers bad technique.

[abacacus]

realscotch, on Jan 17 2011, 02:57 PM, said:

That style of music is the only genre it matters in. In all other cases it doesn't mean much and triggering covers bad technique.

Ha. If you mean to say drummers like George Kollias lack in technique, you really have no clue about foot technique. Triggering also provides much easier monitoring, shorter soundchecks, shorter set up times, etc. I really fail to see how it covers up for bad technique.

[Niiko]

abacacus, on Jan 17 2011, 11:05 PM, said:

Ha. If you mean to say drummers like George Kollias lack in technique, you really have no clue about foot technique. Triggering also provides much easier monitoring, shorter soundchecks, shorter set up times, etc. I really fail to see how it covers up for bad technique.

Lets keep the offensiveness to a minimum, please?
The thing is, as well know, technique is immensely important. If you've got the right technique, you can play at high speeds without triggers. I still maintain there isn't an extensive need for triggers, but if you've got real limited studio time, they're helpful.
But I've seen it time and time again, especially on popular metal records, that whoever is mixing the tracks, will go into the drums and manually move around the beats so it all sounds perfect and clean. To me, it feels unnatural that someone would do that to my drumming unless i'm laying down samples for a library or something. But again, that's just me

[abacacus]

In most music you're right, triggers are helpful but not needed. The problem is, me and Subrick both play the kind of music where it gets so fast that no matter what your technique and how hard you hit it simply will NOT come through clearly. ESPECIALLY on stage with heavy, low tuned guitar and bass. It will just be a rumbling muddy mess, no matter how good your technique and how hard you hit the kick.

[Subrick]

Adding to what abacacus said, not only will it become a rumbling mess, but it'll be a quiet rumbling mess, as the strokes of the pedal will be too short to account for any reasonable volume from the kicks. That's the main function of triggers: to create concise sound in a situation where there'd be none.

[Niiko]

That's understandable, but at the same time simple EQ tweaking is all you need and you can achieve the same or similar results. The definitive 'click' as i've said before, is just the higher frequencies being boosted. It's not always the case live though, unless you have the equipment to do so. So yeah, when playing live a trigger is useful. In the studio, a signal boost/pre amp and good mixing will do the job

[abacacus]

Not always. You would also need to ensure the volume is consistent, which unless I am wrong would involving compressing the bejebus out of it. Too much compression will make anything sound bad IMO. Triggers get that done without compression.

[realscotch]

abacacus, on Jan 17 2011, 06:05 PM, said:

Ha. If you mean to say drummers like George Kollias lack in technique, you really have no clue about foot technique. Triggering also provides much easier monitoring, shorter soundchecks, shorter set up times, etc. I really fail to see how it covers up for bad technique.

I played my whole life with a single BD. I (along with many,many others) had to develope a good technique for the bass drum, so I understand all to well about foot technique.

The idea of triggering drums must mean that all the drummers that came before, whether single or double bass players were all wrong in their approach to recording for all those years.

There are a lot of drummers out there that better hope that genre stays and doesn't go the way of disco because a lot of these people will be out of a job.

By the way, still waiting for the video.

[abacacus]

The idea of triggering has absolutely nothing to do with what you or any other drummer has done to record is wrong. You know what it does mean? It means that if you had to record death metal in that style it would sound freakin' TERRIBLE. If you claim to understand good foot technique, then surely you can prove it? You want my video, it's in my topic in the member show off. Not that great, but it is what it is. There's no music backing me in that video, just a click track at 230 and at the end 255.

Now if you want to blather about things you don't understand, you should prove your point. Lets hear you play SOLID double kick at 220 (pretty average speed for death metal, slower then most really) and have it come through loud, clear, and consistent. I guarantee you that you cannot do it. I've seen it done ONCE, by Derek Roddy, and you are nowhere near him when it comes to power and speed.

edit:
actually, better video idea... cover Powers That Be by Hate Eternal. Lets see you make your feet heard at those speeds.

This post has been edited by abacacus: 17 January 2011 - 04:43 PM